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Permalink Reply by Michael S. (bikerider1996) on September 17, 2012 at 8:50pm

It is the Ph that's killing the tetras. The Ph needs to be either at 7.0 or lower.

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Permalink Reply by Peter on September 17, 2012 at 9:29pm

I will have to disagree with Michael yea neons are naturally from blackwater aka super soft highly acidic water. That said i have 12 neons in my 55g with my water ph at 7.8 so that debunks the ph is killing them theory

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Permalink Reply by ŦůRbö ۰ Ҏяѻ ۰ on September 23, 2012 at 3:07am

Yeah I have my neons in 7.6 ish and bright light. I hear people say they are hard to keep, need perfect conditions and if you say neon wrong they die. I find this untrue, I have had neons live forever without any trouble, even with an ich outbreak. I have kept neons in a tank in my shed that was never cleaned, filtered, heated or taken care of. I think they lived off bugs, and rain water. I didnt put them there, I think there were a few eggs in there at the time I moved the tank and they just grew and bred. Even my neons now are moved from tank to tank every 14 days to breed, so they get stressed more than normal. (They breed in 7.6pH as well)The ONLY neons I have ever, ever had die for no reason what so ever were from Petsmart.

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Permalink Reply by Robert Jango on September 18, 2012 at 4:48am

Your other fish are doing fine and it sounds like your tank conditions are acceptable. Its possible the illness is coming from the place you got them or, more likely, the transfer is causing some kind of shock. Maybe the tanks they come from have a very low ph - like in the low 6s. Thus the change could cause ph shock.  7.6 may not be good for breeding but, like Peter says, they can do fine in it. Its the sudden change in ph, not the ph itself, that can cause deaths.

If its not that then I'm not sure what it is. But I do know from experience that Cardinals, Neons, and German Blue Rams have a penchant for dying suddenly after being transferred from one place to another. 

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Permalink Reply by Jody has Angels on September 18, 2012 at 3:50pm

I agree with Robert about the ph and transfer shock...Also you might be getting neons that are new arrivals to the fish store, and they are highly stressed from shipping. You might ask the fish store how long they have had them and if they are stabalized yet before you buy more

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Permalink Reply by Alex on September 20, 2012 at 6:14pm

what should i do?  I've read that it is better to have a stable tank than trying to get it to the right pH then do a water change and have a pH spike.  Does co2 affect the pH? Does it affect anything besides plant growth? Read things about peat balls and other plants that help reduce pH. I would like some driftwood but never find anything to fit my 10 that is cool enough. I heard that help reduce pH. Any ideas?

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Permalink Reply by Robert Jango on September 21, 2012 at 12:10am

Go with your first thought - keep a stable ph. You can add peat etc, but when you do water changes the ph will swing back toward 7.6. Keep the water the way it is. And ask your pet store person what the ph is in his tank. If its in the 7s then we know the problem may be with the fish themselves.

Here's another idea. Raise the temperature of your water to the 80s. Cardinals love high temps and it boosts their immune system. Also try giving them any live foods you can get your hands on and provide plenty of plant cover - Water Lettuce is perfect for Cardinals and neons as they come from dark waters and don't like the glaring light. 

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Permalink Reply by Alex on September 21, 2012 at 11:44am

I've got lots of dark places for them to hide so thats where I find them the most just chilling in the back of the tank. I hooked up my DIY co2 yesterday around 4PM its now 8:30am the next day and the pH has dropped from 7.6ish to 6ish. I know that is a pretty big swing but my fish seem really active and my last cardinal is actually swimming around the tank like he was when he had 5 other cardinals and two neons with him. I guess ill call the pet store first before I waste money on more fish.

I need to do a water change but I'm worried that since it was such a large pH swing should I wait another day to give the fish more of a chance to acclimate to the lower pH before I go and put in the 7.6pH tap water? Or should I do it now before the acclimate all the way to 6.0pH. I moved the co2 diffuser closer to the filter outtake where there is more surface movement to help release the co2 so the pH wont keep dropping.

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Permalink Reply by Robert Jango on September 21, 2012 at 8:57pm

You want the fish to acclimate to the lower ph before you raise it? Ph swings aren't helpful; period. And Co2 poisons fish if you add to much. Stop blaming yourself for the death of the fish. I don't think you did anything wrong, and the more you try to "fix the problem" the worse you may make it. Many times fish die for reasons that have nothing to do with you. We understand very little about biology and disease in humans - and less when it comes to fish. 

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Permalink Reply by Alex on September 22, 2012 at 5:24am

I 100% understand that pH swings or any swings within a fish tank are a no no. I know its best to keep it at a stable pH than try and add things like chemicals, blackwater, or peat to try and lower the pH because it will just raise when you add the high pH tap water.

I took the co2 diffuser out for just a little bit to change up the yeast in the DIY and it raised almost back to 7.6. All my fish are still alive and the co2 is back on and the last cardinal seems much happier. He's not hiding anymore. I wanted to add co2 to the tank to help with plant growth, not lower the pH. It just so happens to lower pH as well.(so ive read and tested in person)

If I want to keep fish of this type do should I buy RO water and start doing small water changes a couple times a week to get the fish acclimated to it? I believe RO water is 7.0pH. 

Thanks for the words of encouragement Robert :) 

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Permalink Reply by Robert Jango on September 22, 2012 at 11:33am

PH is not a big deal if you want to keep these types of fish. My brother kept beautiful Cardinals in ph neutral, hard water. But if you have an eye on breeding them, you will definitely need water that is soft and acidic. Soft water has nothing dissolved in it; its pure H2O or something close to it. Theoretically it has a 7.0 ph but, for some reason, it usually turns acidic - maybe because of dissolved Co2 - not sure.

I know of three ways to obtain soft water: distillation, reverse osmosis, and collecting rainwater. I don't know of anyone who distills water. I personally collect rainwater by placing barrels under the gutters of my home, but reverse osmosis also works - if you don't mind paying for it.

If you do decide to breed Cardinals, conditions in the tanks (you'll need more than one tank) have to be exacting and you'll probably have to do away with pretty things like substrate, most plants and light. Breeding tanks can be pretty ugly.

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Permalink Reply by Jeremy I on September 25, 2012 at 10:21pm

uh, yeah... no. Many of the harmful elements have a boiling point above that of water, so all boiling would do is concentrate those toxins. It does kill any pests that may be in the water, though.. though that shouldn't be a problem from the tap.

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