Comment by LED on November 19, 2012 at 4:13pm

First of all i commend you on trying dirt.  But i must say, if you're willing to use fertilizers you will have more control over nutrient levels than with dirt.  

Second: NEVER  use laterite with dirt and peat moss.  One should only use laterite in a non dirted, non peat substrate.  Pretty much it should be used in your gravel/sand of choice.

3rd: Laterite is an iron source so why would you use red clay(iron source), iron ore(iron source), AND laterite when they're all iron.  you will kill all your plants with iron toxicity.  Choose one of the iron clay or ore. 

4th: NEVER use peat in the substrate and never with dirt or a strong iron source.  Peat releases humic acid into the substrate which decreases pH.  With low pH in the substrate you cause the nutrients to leech out of the dirt quickly causing a huge bloom of algae, metal toxicity, and chemical imbalance in the substrate causing more harm to the plants and fish in your tank.

5th: DO NOT use live sand in dirt. live sand is not needed and i would discourage the use of it in your dirt.  It will cause the substrate to become too high in pH and cause vital redox process to slow down making your plants not able to process certain nutrients in your dirt. bad bad idea and I agree with your speculation there,  good thinking.

The best way to have a dirted tank is to let the dirt be by itself, maybe with a lil clay, and cap it with gravel that is 2 - 4 mm in average diameter size.  

For most peoples needs i would say less than 1 inch (even less based on how people tend not to plant many plants) and you can cap with 2 inches  usually 3 inches is deep enough for most root systems.  if you have plants with very small roots (like carpeting plants) then smaller gravel would be best.  If you find that the small carpeting plants are not staying down you can use your choice of sand (non carbonate type) to make a layer to place your carpeting plants. However do understand if you want to move plants around, if you disturb the sand, it will eventually settle down into the dirt. so if you place your carpet, leave it there unless you want to get more sand and replant.

Comment by Steve Heitman on November 20, 2012 at 1:28pm

Completely agree.
I just want to add the reason you want to cap the soil with gravel, or a larger grain, is oxygen.
You want oxygen to reach the soil in order to keep anaerobic bacteria alive. This bacteria will break down fish waste and decaying plant material into nutrients for your plants. This will constantly replenish nutrients for up to 10 years.

Comment by ŦůRbö ۰ Ҏяѻ ۰ on November 20, 2012 at 5:11pm

I personally do not use Miracle-Gro Organic Choice potting mix, I know everyone here uses it and seems to work for them. I just don't like the fact that it contains poultry feces, unless you are in Florida then it contains cow feces. Read the ingredients on the bag.

Just saying.

Just to add a thought on the peat moss and it lower in the pH. It will lower the pH, and soften the water, meaning with each water change the water you are adding is a different pH and GH; which isn't cool for the fish.

 

I just use "supersoil" from the HD.( theres no poop in it) and gravel. Thats it. I dose some iron every month, but I cant stop my plants from growing.

Comment by Jake on November 21, 2012 at 6:00pm

Thanks for the advice everyone.

All this info has made me have more questions about dirt meaning (Miracle-Gro Organic Choice potting mix). If what you guys are saying is true then why do most plants grow so well in it? Seeing how there is bird crap and not enough oxygen and CEC (I'm not sure what that is. I think it has to do with minerals and other nutrients.) 

I am now leaning more on not using it because it is a mess to deal with and if I need to tear down my tank and move again its a pain. 

Here's an idea what about having  a layer of dirt then fuval stratum then flourite. Would it also help to cap it with plain old gravel to have a clean top?

Comment by ŦůRbö ۰ Ҏяѻ ۰ on November 21, 2012 at 7:21pm

I agree with "The King"

I just use dirt (potting soil) because it works for me, and its 4 bucks. I try to copy nature, and in nature there's dirt. Plus its 4 dollars, lol.

Comment by LED on November 21, 2012 at 11:48pm

LOL Thanks Turbo, I do agree  for low tech moderately planted tanks small amount of dirt is fine for most people if not too much for most on this website, but in the case that you're going high tech and/or heavily planted with a wide range of plants (slow growing and fast growing, nutrient nibbling and nutrient hogs) then you will probably need to mineralize that dirt not only in the way that I've posted before but to mineralize it with macro and micro nutrient sources. I believe this is far more than 95% or more of the population on this site is willing to do, but it would provide a longer lasting, truely well rounded source of nutrients more than the nitrogen source that humus (dirt) mostly provides.

Btw if you ever want to add a lil more CEC ability to your substrate you can also use activated carbon mixed in your dirt or even as a layer to soak up the excess nutrients that the dirt will release due to it biodegrading over time.  the activated carbon will hold the nutrients and the roots from your plants will be able to "unlock" them as their roots redox the nutrients from the substrate.

I do understand that i said NEVER use peat, but in reality you can but it can cause more problems than you'd want to deal with during the first couple of months of the substrate being flooded with water (lots of excess nutrients)  In the long run it can be beneficial but i dont see it being that great unless you're in it for the long haul and i mean like a year and more.  Since everyone on here is always in a rush to get results in 1 month, then you will never see great results using peat. you would need UV sterilizers to prevent green water algae (if you have high light) and white foggy water bacterial blooms and lots of water changes to prevent your plants and fish from getting toxic levels of certain nutrients like nitrogenous nutrients (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and heavy metals(Iron, Boron. etc) and possibly minerals(Ca, Mn, Mg. etc).  

ps Dirt is a great source of 1 macro nutrient needed for plant growth nitrogen in the form of ammonium, and nitrate, but it is less abundant in most other macro nutrients like Potassium and Phosphate.  Sulfate in one form or another can be supplied by anaerobic conditions deep in the substrate floor (hence the smell of sulfur or "fart" smells if you poke holes in the substrate to let out gasses)  slightly anaerobic conditions are not bad for your tank as long as you have decent flow to allow oxygen to move over the top layer of your substrate.

INDEX:

CEC = Cation exchange capacity - to put it in plain terms, this CEC is about the level of holding capacity a substance has (in our case dirt)  Dirt doesnt have a high CEC.  As the dirt breaks down it releases nutrients.

Mineralize = the process by which you break down the dirt by flooding and dehydrating and repeating that process to allow bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrate and also mixing micro and macro nutrients into the dirt during this process or after to provide a more balance dirt first layer in your planted tank

Anaerobic / Aerobic = Aerobic bacteria is VERY necessary in our tanks. Nitrifying bacteria, an aerobic bacteria, helps to reduce toxic ammonia from our tanks water to prevent our aquatic buddies from dying.  Anaerobic bacteria however is usually overlooked and always dubbed bad bacteria by those who dont understand the importance of these lil guys.  They help to convert nitrate back to ammonia, which can or cannot be good depending on if you have plants or not, and they are also responsible for releasing nutrients to your plants roots.  

Comment by LED on November 21, 2012 at 11:52pm

I failed to mention if you use stratum and flourite i would suggest not using "plain old gravel" on top. stratum and flourite both look great, to cap it with ugly old gravel is a shame =(  plus you're just adding low CEC substrate on top of high CEC substrate, thats not good either.

But remember if you just use stratum and/or flourite, and if you heavily plant or use very nutrient hogging plants then you may need to start using fertilizers in the water or root tabs.

Comment by TONY K on November 22, 2012 at 2:48pm

I have to agree with all those who are against dirt. if you look on the back of the bag it says made of "chicken" litter! i've tried it and yes it worked for a minute then it crashed hard! very unstable. plus if you ever want to redo your tank with that chicken shit in the bottom you ultimately have a very big mess. pretty much have to buy new gravel ect. and start over, is what i did but the second time around i'm using seachem flourish and it works great no big mess like you have with dirt, its stable and lasts forever. unlike that chicken shit!

Comment by ŦůRbö ۰ Ҏяѻ ۰ on November 22, 2012 at 2:55pm

I mineralize that way, I wet it and dry it about 4 times over 4 days, then I add some liquid ferts to a gallon of water and let the dirt soak in the water for an hour or so, (I consider dirt as a "spounge" that holds whatever nutrients it comes in contact with, and the root "suck" those nutrients out. Thats why I dose dirted tanks, to "resaturate" the dirt's nutrients.) then let it dry out 100%. Dirt the tank, cap it, fill it, 50% water change, fill it, 50% water change, and then let it cycle for 3 to 4 days with lights and filter on; the water will get yellowish from the tannins leached, (but tannins nullify metals) but a 75% water change will fix that. The 5th day, plants go in, just a few (normally anubias, wisteria, and some local plants I collect) and they take off growing; then add fish. This system works for me, I then dose Seachem Flourish once a month or so, I kinda go by the plants once they stop "leaking" o2 bubbles I normally dose. I dont have a Co2 system on my dirted tanks ( I do on my display tank, but thats just sand) I know the pH will drop lower if I added co2, and seeing that the dirted tanks are around 5.0 I dont want to go lower. The point of this is to convey, that I just use dirt and a cap. (sometimes sand, sometimes gravel) I dont have 15 layers of clay, flourite, and what not. But I'm not saying that its not needed, it totally depends on the set up. Like  I said, I try to copy nature, I consider my tanks 75% Walsted, and 25% normal. LOL if that makes sense. I know I can leave my tanks alone for a months without water changes and they will be fine. I do water changes every week, mostly cause I want to lol; (again, copying nature in the way of rain fall) I run filters, mostly for water movement, (meaning the filters have no carbon, or media, besides the some filter floss (to polish the water) and a bio wheel (mostly to slow the water, and stop the splashing sound)) Again, depends on what you are wanted to do. As everyone should, research the plants and there needs, the fishes' needs, and your needs; to set it up the way it need to be. Again, this is what I do, and it works for me and my lil "nature worlds". I'm just saying there really isnt a certain way to keep a planted tank, as in, just one right way and the wrong ways.

And to touch on LED's carbon in the substrate, to each his own. I personally dont like carbon. From my studies, and what I learned in bio class; carbon will remove potassium and other trace and minor elements if they are in a specific form, which is pH dependent. For most elements, the pH must either be below 4 or above 10 for them to be in a chemical form that can be absorbed by carbon. ( carbon in the filter) Under most conditions, carbon has a functional life of one to two weeks, (again in the filter, but It hink this applies to all carbon even if its mixed in the substrate) perhaps even shorter. The average functional life of carbon is difficult to determine as many variables apply, such as the amount of dissolve organics in the water, the effectiveness of mechanical filtration, and the amount of carbon in use. My assumption is that carbon’s functional life in most tanks will not exceed 2 weeks. With this assumption, a best practice is to replace half of your carbon weekly. This will result in fresh carbon within the tank for each week with no carbon remaining in the tank for longer than two weeks. All carbons will release some amount of phosphate but some inexpensive carbons are acid washed in phosphoric acid and these carbons will leach a substantial amount of phosphate into the water (which promotes algae growth). However, all carbons from reputable manufacturers are currently acid washed with hydrochloric or sulfuric acids. These will leach very little, if any phosphate. Provided you are not a reef aquarist (and since this Post is about a freshwater planted tank that is unlikely) the amount of phosphate leached is irrelevant. Regardless, phosphate concerns can be eliminated by soaking activated carbon in a saltwater solution for a few days prior to adding it to your aquarium (but will harm live plants). Carbon can mask problems. As an example, a dead rotting fish in a tank will normally cause the odor of the water to change. In the absence of carbon this odor may be detected by the aquarist who may then search out the cause, find the dead fish, and remove it from the tank. If carbon is in use, the odor of the water may not change, and the dead fish may be left to decay potentially resulting in problems far more significant than a smelly tank. I prefer not to use it in a planted tank; it will remove most of liquid fertilizers. The main reason people use it is to remove smell and the chemicals they add to city tap water. But with weekly or twice weekly water changes there will be no smell, and the use of a quality water conditioner will remove chlorine and other chemicals in the tap water.  

Well, I guess I should slow down on the coffee, HA!

Happy Thanksgiving.

(I'm going for more coffee, this flavor is only avail. durring the Holidays, so I need to get as much as I can!)

The more Know! (a star just flew over my head (like the TV commercial)) Hopefully someone will get that.

Comment